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Why does the Nuvi keep trying to take me on back roads?

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Comments

  • Marc 301 Points
    After a reset I get for the original route taking New Rutheford Ave.
    92.8 Miles in 137 Minutes.

    For a route where I put a via pt. on Route 1 that forces it to use the Broadway (Route 1)to I-93 S route instead I get:
    93.2 miles in 138 minutes.

    As in every case where I see it take you off the highway, the route that drags you through downtown Boston is overly optimistic in terms of travel speeds.
  • I would add that I believe that regardless of what nuvi models are used,the basic routing from point A to point B should be the same,as long as the starting points are the same. The only difference that i observed on any of the various units are the bells and whistles and the map detail.
  • Marc 301 Points
    Thank you for you insight,but the point is with the 350 garmin having the 2009 original maps routing is spot on.When using the 2010 maps routing is way off.With both units using the same settings,changes not for the better had to happen when the mapping changed.
    Yes but unless you switch maps between units, you don't know if it is a change in map information or a change in how the different units make use of that information that is causing the problems. You have two variables, GPS and Map- how do you know which is causing the problem?
  • Tim 1480 Points
    After a reset I get for the original route taking New Rutheford Ave.
    92.8 Miles in 137 Minutes.

    For a route where I put a via pt. on Route 1 that forces it to use the Broadway (Route 1)to I-93 S route instead I get:
    93.2 miles in 138 minutes.
    Thanks, Marc! gatorguy, can you do the same with yours?
  • Marc 301 Points
    I would add that I believe that regardless of what nuvi models are used,the basic routing from point A to point B should be the same,as long as the starting points are the same. The only difference that i observed on any of the various units are the bells and whistles and the map detail.
    Bad assumption. That is what Gatorguy and I have just demonstrated is not true. He has a 760 and I have a 765. We both have the latest updates and latest map. We get different routes and different travel time estimates. Do your self a favor and read the previous posts in this thread.
  • I called garmin spoke to a tech.who had upgraded 2009 maps(i have the origional 2009 map not upgraded) When given the same starting and ending points ,and the same settings that i have ,the routes that she came up with was the identical routes of the 2010.30 maps. That makes me believe that at some pint after the 2009 maps were upgraded there was a major change in the computing of the routes.
  • Marc 301 Points
    Tim Correction not 137 and and 138 minutes but 1 hour 37 minutes and 1 hour and 38 minutes. Sorry for the confusion.
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    Sorry Tim, I've been playing with my new toy and overlooked this till a few minutes ago. I'll reset my 760 and re-check a bit later today.
  • Marc 301 Points
    Boyd, Can you take that nice new 1350 of yours and put in the same route as Gatorguy and me? My guess is, being a newer GPS it will do the samething as my 755- but I would like to know.
  • Boyd, Can you take that nice new 1350 of yours and put in the same route as Gatorguy and me? My guess is, being a newer GPS it will do the samething as my 755- but I would like to know.
    marc,

    so what nuvi's don't have this problem?


    bob
  • Boyd 1985 Points
    Boyd, Can you take that nice new 1350 of yours and put in the same route as Gatorguy and me?
    Sure, but can you please re-state the start and end points? I started to read back through this thread and I just couldn't stand it... sorry. :evil:
  • Marc 301 Points
    Boyd,
    The route starts at 302 N. Main St., Middleton (Twn), MA and the end point is the city of Hyannis, MA.

    As for your question Bob- it looks like the 7x5 series is overly optimistic with speeds on secondary roads. Is this the overriding problem with routing in Nuvis? I don't know. Are other lines, like the 1xxx series,affected? Again I don't know. We are trying to piece together a more coherent picture of what is going on, but from where I sit that isn't all that easy to do.
  • Marc,Tim,Gator-Guy,thank you, for your help, I went to page 1thru 10 on this topic. I just hard-reset my 1490T,same results. As I stated before when I spoke to several garmin reps,they had the same routes on their computers and different garmin models as i did. Only when I spoke to a tech that had the original 2009 maps,did the results change to match my 350 with the 2009 maps.The routes were spot on,they did not show the strange routing as the 2010.30 maps show. Either the programing (by garmin) on the late 2009 maps were changed or something is radically wrong with the new maps.Not sure if Garmin cares or not.Anyway thank you all for your time and input.
    Paul
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    After a reset I still get the proper route, 93 miles and 1:38.

    Nuvi 760, latest maps and latest firmware, for those not following closely.
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    marc,

    so what nuvi's don't have this problem?


    bob
    My 760 so far :lol:
  • Boyd 1985 Points
    The 1350 tells me 93 miles with a travel time of 3 hours and 13 minutes for your test route. I have firmware 3.3 and whatever map was pre-installed. I don't see a way to tell what version the map is on the GPS, am I missing something? Have not ever run webupdater on this one.
  • Marc 301 Points
    Gator-guy
    So to complete Tim's request, put a waypoint that forces the route onto New Rutheford Road and onto Washington st. If you look at the map, just north of the Broadway (Rt 1) and I93 junction, you will see New Rutheford road, which if you follow east crosses a bridge into Boston proper. If you put a waypoint on that bridge it should follow the route my 755 takes.
  • Marc 301 Points
    The 1350 tells me 93 miles with a travel time of 3 hours and 13 minutes for your test route. I have firmware 3.3 and whatever map was pre-installed. I don't see a way to tell what version the map is on the GPS, am I missing something? Have not ever run webupdater on this one.
    Well that's a lot quicker than either one of us got, but the question is where does it have you get off Broadway, on New Rutheford Rd. or I93?.

    On my 755, to see the map version the sequence is Tools-Map-Map Info. If that doesn't work, you are on your own.

    Thanks,
    Marc
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    Marc, I doubt Boyd reset his nuvi, so it had a bit of his driving history to adjust his travel time by. Boyd, is that correct?
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    Marc, give me any address on Washington that forces that route. I don't see Rutherford right off and I've got another project going right now too. With an address I can get to it pretty quick.
  • Boyd 1985 Points
    Sorry... I was looking under "about". I have the 2010.10 map.

    The initial sequence is:

    5.5 mi exit right on US-1 S
    3.3 mi Keep left on Broadway
    12 mi Take New Rutherford Ave on right towards I-93 N/Somerville

    No, I have not reset anything. But I have only driven 300 miles with it so I wouldn't expect it had "learned" a lot yet... would it?
  • Marc 301 Points
    Boyd,
    Thanks for looking

    Well, unless the map differences cause it, it has the same bad routing as my 755t. I had a feeling that whatever they did in the 7x5 series would continue into the 1xxx series.
  • Marc 301 Points
    Marc, give me any address on Washington that forces that route. I don't see Rutherford right off and I've got another project going right now too. With an address I can get to it pretty quick.
    Ok Try this
    146 N Washington St.
    Boston, MA

    If that does something other than take you off on New Rutheford St. it will be very strange.
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    edited December 2009
    Thanks. That gives me 93 and 1:37

    I had to go back and look at this one three times just to be positive.

    That's odd now. Even my 760 says using the forced via to take Rutherford/Washington, matching your 765 route, will get me to Hyannis one minute quicker than the route my 760 chooses with simply a start/end point. I know we got different "fastest" routes when calculated automatically, but the travel times on both routes match on both devices. I don't know this one is a good test of which route is the right one, but at least we do see a difference in the offered routing between the 760 and 765. Since you're right there, can you test the travel times on both routes? If you do, try to avoid the heaviest congestion of the day just to be fair. No need to drive the entire route, but just see if you can navigate the section in question in the time your 765 thinks you can. I know it wouldn't be a definitive test, but better than a guess :)
  • Marc 301 Points
    That's interesting. So the times are almost equal for you too. For some reason this was just a very small amount higher for you and lower for me than the other route. We are talking about a minute or less.
  • Boyd 1985 Points
    FWIW, my Nuvi 205 says 93 miles and 1 hour 36 minutes drive time. It has software version 4.40 and CNNT 2009 (there is no version number listed beyond that in the Map Info).
  • Boyd 1985 Points
    I just updated the 1350 to the newest firmware (3.40) and map (CNNT 2010.30).

    Now I get a travel time of 1 hour 41 minutes and distance of 92 miles. Evidently they have made some changes. This route begins with:

    3.3 mi exit right on US-1 S
    3.3 mi Keep left on Broadway
    12 mi Take New Rutherford Ave on right towards I-93 N/Somerville
  • marc,

    so what nuvi's don't have this problem?


    bob


    My 760 so far :lol:
    That's too bad, because my BIL's 760 takes me off the freeway to get on an expressway for quite a few miles with many lights.

    Try leaving from Buckner Dr/Meadow lane, San Jose, Ca. to:
    Villa drive/Nandell way, Los Altos, Ca.

    Every GPS unit that I have ever seen always take 280 to the Magladena exit, not Foothill expressway with all it's lights!


    bob
  • Boyd 1985 Points
    See, what are we actually proving here, aside from the fact that people are smarter than GPS'es? I agree that Garmin should fix the routing problems and am not trying to make excuses for them.

    But I think there's a larger philosophical issue regarding GPS use and expectations. *I* consider a gps a tool which can help me navigate. I don't like the spoken directions and rarely use them. Instead, I look at the map and apply a little common sense to what I see. If the GPS tells me to get off the highway for no good reason, then I just keep going and let it catch up with me.

    I don't think a GPS is a substitute for common sense, and I don't think you can disengage your brain when using one. Sure, I get the whole concept of wanting to just concentrate on the road while the GPS tells you what to do with spoken directions. But obviously, in spite of all the hype from the manufacturers, we really aren't quite there yet. I don't think we will ever really get to that point unless you think a little box weighing a few ounces can be smarter than you.

    I love computers and gadgets, but there are still so many simple, basic things completely beyond their reach that even a child can do. The ability to look at a map and almost instantly know which route makes the most sense appears to be one of these. Also remember, it's "garbage in, garbage out". The maps and routing algorithms were all created by humans and can contain errors.

    I suspect part of this is age related. I have been a map freak as long as I can remember. I was driving a car for over 25 years before automotive GPS'es were even available as consumer products. I generally know which way I want to go. The GPS is a great aid for me, but I consider it's guidance little more than a "suggestion".

    Perhaps the fact that I don't use voice guidance is also a factor. If the GPS is constantly nagging me to turn someplace that I don't want to, that would be annoying. Just yesterday I was testing some new software in preparation for a review and was using the spoken directions. I found myself telling it "SHUT UP!" when it wanted me to go somewhere I didn't want to go. :)
  • When I tell Jill to shut up nothing much happens, when I forget and tell my wife to shut up, well the human excrement contacts the rotating ventilating device in a big way :lol:
  • Marc 301 Points
    edited December 2009
    Gator,
    Actually I'm not all that close, and don't travel to Boston all that often. Rest assured the next time I am going that way I will get off on New Rutheford St. I have walked that route, oddly enough, at least the part over the Charlestown Bridge on New Rutheford St. It is part of the Boston Freedom Trail, that takes you by all the historical sites around Boston. From what I remember, unless you are driving in the middle of the night, it is heavily congested and there is a traffic light on the Boston side. I would be very surprised if there are not more lights on Washington St. in that area.

    Edit- In fact you can follow the route in Goggle Earth with their car camera shots and there are a minimum of four lights, and I only got half way up Washington St. There is no way you can get this route without hitting a couple of lights.

    This is very close to North Station and Boston Garden, where the Celtics and Bruins play. I would be very surprised if at most times you could travel that route at an average speed of 35 MPH, which is what the simulator says if you run it. In general I am beginning to believe somewhere in the past year or two there has just been a general increase in the estimated speeds on secondary roads in the Garmin map data, and that is why we are seeing this change in routes. If it were always that way I don't think we would hear all these people screaming. A lot of them are saying my old GPS gave me aroute that made sense, my new one doesn't.
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    edited December 2009
    marc,

    so what nuvi's don't have this problem?


    bob


    My 760 so far :lol:


    That's too bad, because my BIL's 760 takes me off the freeway to get on an expressway for quite a few miles with many lights.

    Try leaving from Buckner Dr/Meadow lane, San Jose, Ca. to:
    Villa drive/Nandell way, Los Altos, Ca.

    Every GPS unit that I have ever seen always take 280 to the Magladena exit, not Foothill expressway with all it's lights!


    bob
    I get 19 miles and 19:34 for travel time. Capital Exp.>680S>280N>Foothill>Grant>Fremont>Miramonte. etc.

    TomTom route planner uses 280 to Magdalena, 19.7 miles and 24 minutes.
    Now move your destination to Arbor instead, just 2 blocks away and TomTom's planner picks up the same route as my Garmin and uses the Foothill Expressway. So it appears there's less than a minutes difference between using Magdalena and the Foothill according to TomTom's IQR. Insignificant really and doesn't make one route necessarily faster than the other. Pretty much the same for practical purposes.

    I guess what you're saying is you can't use Foothill and get there in around 20?
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    Marc, that might be what is happening. Perhaps older devices like mine have more of a preference for primary highways, even if using a secondary road gives you an insignificant time savings, at least according to ETA's.

    For the two routes posted yesterday and today, the times on the route options are only a minute different. Now if there's really a several minute disadvantage of one over the other, that's one thing. Without driving it, who can say for certain. For instance, Steelgtr's San Jose route is only one minute different depending on whether you use Magdalena or Foothill, according to TomTom. My guess is his perception tells him there's a much bigger difference. But is there? Both the TomTom and Garmin routes computations are very similar apparently.
  • SergZak 340 Points
    I've noticed some differences between the 760 the 765 and the 855 in a certain well traveled route. The 765 tends to consistently take me off the freeway earlier/sooner and take larger streets (with many signals of course) to the destination while the 760/855 keep me on the freeway for two more exits. I'll be doing some testing later and post the start/end points (provided I can validate the results I've seen) for those interested in trying it.

    But like gator suggested, the older units (non xx5's) may indeed be favoring highways more. Note that the 8x5 series seems to be just an 8x0 with some xx5 features added and not really an xx5 at all. What I gues I'm trying to say is that it feels much more like a 7x0 than an xx5 and performs as such.

    I'll post more info as I get the chance...
  • marc,

    so what nuvi's don't have this problem?


    bob


    My 760 so far :lol:


    That's too bad, because my BIL's 760 takes me off the freeway to get on an expressway for quite a few miles with many lights.

    Try leaving from Buckner Dr/Meadow lane, San Jose, Ca. to:
    Villa drive/Nandell way, Los Altos, Ca.

    Every GPS unit that I have ever seen always take 280 to the Magladena exit, not Foothill expressway with all it's lights!


    bob


    I get 19 miles and 19:34 for travel time. Capital Exp.>680S>280N>Foothill>Grant>Fremont>Miramonte. etc.

    TomTom route planner uses 280 to Magdalena, 19.7 miles and 24 minutes.
    Now move your destination to Arbor instead, just 2 blocks away and TomTom's planner picks up the same route as my Garmin and uses the Foothill Expressway. So it appears there's less than a minutes difference between using Magdalena and the Foothill according to TomTom's IQR. Insignificant really and doesn't make one route necessarily faster than the other. Pretty much the same for practical purposes.

    I guess what you're saying is you can't use Foothill and get there in around 20?
    Yep,

    Foothill has lots of lights and every one is red :)


    bob
  • SergZak 340 Points
    edited December 2009
    updated post below
  • Another example of strange directions.

    Alaska Highway from Fort Nelson, BC to Watson Lake YT some 330 miles, no lights, no stops, wih ony one junction that does not lead to moose pasture.

    Nuvi directs me to turn on to an unpaved road for about 200 metres then get back on the highway. The unpaved road is a pull-out where travellers can get off the highway for a break. The pull-out is not shorter.

    Perhaps Garmin programmers know we need a break after a couple of hours of driving.
  • Marc 301 Points
    Unchecked avoid unpaved roads, and I do not see this on my 755. Just 322 miles straight to Watson Lake.
  • Another example of strange directions.

    Alaska Highway from Fort Nelson, BC to Watson Lake YT some 330 miles, no lights, no stops, wih ony one junction that does not lead to moose pasture.

    Nuvi directs me to turn on to an unpaved road for about 200 metres then get back on the highway. The unpaved road is a pull-out where travellers can get off the highway for a break. The pull-out is not shorter.

    Perhaps Garmin programmers know we need a break after a couple of hours of driving.
    Please post model #, map, etc. with each report.


    thx

    bob
  • Unchecked avoid unpaved roads, and I do not see this on my 755. Just 322 miles straight to Watson Lake.
    Was using the 255W with the previous to current firmware and 2010.20 map. Another user with his own 255 and map at least a year older obtained the same detour.

    (Can't replicate this now because I am in Whitehorse and haven't figured how to simulate the route between Fort Nelson and Watson Lake - but last Friday the Nuvi wanted me to pull through the rest area.)
  • SergZak 340 Points
    edited December 2009
    Updated post
    * Edited to include hard-reset results on nuvi 765

    Route info:

    Start point: N34 04.048 W117 58.903 (I-10 Eastbound)
    End Point: N34 06.392 W117 35.300 (Foothill Blvd)

    Faster Time
    Avoidances: Toll Roads, Unpaved Roads

    Maps used: CN NA NT 2010.30 (all units)

    I also ran this same route through MapSource (using 2010.30 maps) and adjusted the Road Selection slider (edit>preferences>routing>road selection) to try and replicate the nuvi's results (which I've noted) for each unit tested.

    Units tested:
    nuvi 765 / sw v4.60
    nuvi 855 / sw v4.60
    nuvi 760 / sw v4.80
    nuvi 250 / sw v5.00

    nuvi 765 route directions
    Keep Left onto I-10 E to San Bernardino
    Right to CA-83/Euclid Ave to Ontario/Upland
    Left on Euclid
    Right on Foothill
    Arrive at destination

    Route distance: 25 mi, Travel Time: 25:46
    MapSource equivalent: Could not replicate the exact same route, however, closest match seemed to be with the Road Selection slider all the way left to Prefer Minor Roads

    nuvi 765 route directions immediately following a hard reset (now the same as 855 below)
    Keep left onto I-10 E to San Bernardino
    Right to Archibald Ave to Ontario Airport
    Keep left onto Archibald Ave North
    Right on Foothill Blvd
    Arrive at destination

    Route Distance: 26 mi, Travel Time: 23:18
    MapSource equivalent: Road Selection slider centered (default)


    nuvi 855 route directions (same as 765 w/hard reset above)
    Keep left onto I-10 E to San Bernardino
    Right to Archibald Ave to Ontario Airport
    Keep left onto Archibald Ave North
    Right on Foothill Blvd
    Arrive at destination

    Route Distance: 26 mi, Travel Time: 23:18
    MapSource equivalent: Road Selection slider centered (default)


    nuvi 760 route directions (same as nuvi 250 below)
    Keep left onto I-10 E to San Bernardino
    Right to 4th Street
    Keep left on 4th Street
    Left on Vineyard Ave
    Right on Foothill Blvd
    Arrive at destination

    Route distance: 25 mi, Travel Time: 23:39
    MapSource equivalent: Road Selection slider one notch towards "Prefer Minor Roads"


    nuvi 250 route directions (same as nuvi 760 above)
    Keep left onto I-10 E to San Bernardino
    Right to 4th Street
    Keep left on 4th Street
    Left on Vineyard Ave
    Right on Foothill Blvd
    Arrive at destination

    Route distance: 25 mi, Travel Time: 23:39
    MapSource equivalent: Road Selection slider one notch towards "Prefer Minor Roads"

    *Note that the "immediately following a hard-reset" results on the 765 now are the same as the 855. This is likely the result of the hard-reset clearing the data used by the nuvi as it "learns how you drive" over time.

    Seems to me as though different series units are using different variations (nuvi equivalent) of the MapSource "Road Selection" slider...at least in this case. Sort of like what was available on the Street Pilot series (bottom-right corner in the screenshot provided by Boyd below) but hidden within the nuvi OS and configurable only by Garmin...

    image
  • SergZak,
    I would like to add three more routings to your list of routes, based on your Start point: N34 04.048 W117 58.903 and End point: N34 06.392 W117 35.300

    775T (sw. 3.60, CN NA NT 2010.30) route directions:
    Identical to your 855 directions, Route Distance: 26.1 mi, Travel Time: 23:18

    Mapsource on my computer (CN NA NT 2010.30):
    Identical to your 855 directions, Route Distance: 26.2 mi, Travel Time: 24:10

    Google Earth:
    I-10 E to
    E. 4th St.
    North on N.Baker
    Right on Foothill Blvd.
    Route distance: 25.2 mi, Travel Time: 29:00

    I wonder what route the Navteq mapping software would show? I do not have it on my computer, therefor I can not check it. It would provide routing, which is not related to any GPS configuration.
  • For SergZak's route on my 765T (2010.30, SW v3.60)

    I-10 toward San Bernardino
    Right to Archibald Ave / Ontario Airport
    Left onto Archibald Ave North
    Right on Foothill
    Arrive at coordinates

    26 miles, 26 minutes 14 seconds

    NavTeq's website (set to fastest or shortest route at 135pm PST) from Dalewood Street near I-10 to 9901 Foothill Blvd, Rancho Cucamonga

    Enter I-10 East at connection point (32A)
    Exit I-10 East (at 4th Street ??)
    Follow E 4Th St
    Left onto N Vineyard Ave.
    Right onto Arrow Route, Arrow Hwy.
    Left onto Archibald Ave.
    Right onto Foothill Blvd, Historic Route 66 (Ca-66 East).
    Right onto Ramona Ave.
    Arrive at destination

    24.87 miles, 24 minutes
  • Tim 1480 Points
    I thought some of you following this thread might be interested in reading this article. But let me be clear, I have no reason to believe this is what is happening with the issues people are seeing in this thread. It is just a similar topic.

    When is the fastest route not the fastest?
  • Tim,I have observed what you have written although rarely on my Nuvi 350,with the original 2009 maps. What I cannot understand is why my 350 will give me one set of routes from point A to Point B, and my 1490T will give me an entirely different routing from the same points.Both units set the same. As I posted a few articles back,Garmin techs with a set of 2009 original maps gave me the exact routes that I had on my 350. The tech used various units as well as the computer that he had. They also confirmed that the routing for the same points were different on the newer maps. All units were set for fastest route,with traffic and off road checked for avoidances. Would these facts make you wonder if in fact that after the 2009 maps were updated that some sort of factors in programing has changed.
    Paul
  • Tim 1480 Points
    There are lots of variables here... the map version, the features of the installed map, the features of the device, and the application version of the device. All of those, and then add in differences in preferences/settings and there is a lot to dig through. That's why we've been trying to stick to a couple of routes and a couple of devices to investigate, and for any given route it is difficult to track down exactly why there is a difference. Even if we determine it is a difference in the underlying map then we still don't know why. It might be some sort of transition from using road classifications to using speed limit data, it might be a change in how a particular classification is attributed an estimated speed, or it could be a change in how roads are classified.

    Lots of variables, which is why this thread is so long. :)
  • FWIW, my Nuvi 205 says 93 miles and 1 hour 36 minutes drive time. It has software version 4.40 and CNNT 2009 (there is no version number listed beyond that in the Map Info).
    My 755T says 93 miles; 1 hr 49 min; SW Ver 3.60; Map 2009.11
  • Hello, all,
    I have been reading this thread & have experienced the same issue several times as well, the most frustrating one was Last week, I had just purchased my 765T for a trip to Kansas City from Wichita, since I was very unfamiliar with KC. At first I thought It was a outstanding, but then I had it route me to the Isle of Capri Casino from the Business I was leaving (Located under the Park University), It took me off I35 & through a run down part of KC, what I would consider a potentially bad area of town at least at night & through numerous stop lights. At least IMHO a very poor routing, especially considering I was in Gamin's own back yard so to speak.

    Next, when I was heading back home in Wichita, KS, It wanted to route me off N bound I 135 on 13st headed west (again not a great area at night) which has stoplights at every intersection, at least 13 in route from where it wanted me to exit I 135 until I reached my home. At least here I knew better & ignored its routing.
    I purchased it to assist me in unfamiliar areas where I don't know better routes, I would go with a Tom Tom, but I can't load custom topo maps on one, I am going to return my 765T look into Magellan or possibly a 855/885 so at least I can use the custom avoids feature to exclude potentially bad areas. If I do go with the 855/885 I'll most likely hold off until garmin resolves this issue.
  • SL 0 Points
    I do not think the 855/885 is better in routing. I had the 855 and returned it for bad routing problems. The device kept giving me freeways even after disabling the freeway routing and in that area the local roads were available.
  • Crazy Horse (and others)

    Please contact Garmin tech support and describe your experiences to them. The only way they will act is if they hear directly from a customer and open a case.
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