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Motorola Motonav TN7xx & TN5xx Owner's Thread

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  • mickjcat 0 Points
    Hey there,
    I have been following the discussion on this subject of losing audio on the tn765, I rolled back from the latest firmware to Version 8.5.4.12950. My audio is back, and it says on my unit I still have the V4.09.00, on the toolbox in transfer contents that I have V1? I am a little lost as to which version of maps I am now running....can I download the v4 and not mess up the audio? I was assuming the culprit is the sw update.
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    We are being told by Moto rep that the audio problem is due to the the bluetooth software being incompatible and a fix should be out by mid-July.

    I never got to experience the audio problem, but have rolled back to navigation software v8.5.4.136569 and am not experiencing any problems that I know of.

    Your map versions should not have changed from what you had. Goto Settings > System > About > Contents > Maps to check. Current version is 2009.Q4. Phonemes are Q1, Places are Q4, 3D Landmarks are 2009.06, Elevations is 2009.06.

    My Bluetooth firmware is v 2.0.01_091208
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    Thanks for the info, I am staying with the sw version I have for now, since it is the one it came with. I will wait for the fix mid July. The only other difference in our values is my 3d landmarks read: 2006.6 instead of 2009.6
    I am just happy the voice is back. I noticed that in the updates, they had different voices. I don't see that anywhere in the system.....anyway, I have just had this unit for about 24 hours and I already like it better than my Garmin 1490T that died after about a month. I really was just as glad, cause I was leaning toward this unit, but I was a little hesitant because no one has this GPS in the stores around here.
    Again, thanks a lot for your time and knowledge!


  • BTW - did anyone note that when you get a prompt to turn, the left is Dong-ding, and the right is Ding-dong? A smart little audio clue, methinks. (I feel like a ding-dong...which according to Moto, means I'm right! Ha! ) :wink:


    What an interesting feature. Unfortunately I keep the dings and dongs turned off so never noticed it, but it shows the Moto Development Team has some neato tricks up their collective sleeves.

    Maybe Tim could make this your avatar someday...
    image
    That's too funny! :lol: :lol: :lol:
  • moondog151 41 Points
    Since we have gotten recognition from Moto, I purchased the MotoExtra`s (weather, fuel prices, ect. ect.) moments ago, since iit had expired on my original unit. While in the toolbox, I seen this "fix" available for download. When I clicked on the info bar of that item, it said "information not available", so I`m just guessing this must be the fix for the "60" update which I haven`t re-installed as of yet. Just a heads up for everyone that a "fix" appears to be available now. I`ll re-install the "60" update tomorrow, when I will have more free time and see how this works.......
  • moondog151 41 Points
    image








    This is what the toolbox looked like, for me...
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    This is what I saw on June 10th

    image

    This is what I see today (JUL 3)

    image


    Notice that my "fix for navigation contents" is 6.1 MB and yours appears to be different (68.6 MB??)

    By looking at the Contents of this "fix" I see that it is the same old Alaska.fbl file that just will not go away no matter how many times I download it. So, we will await your findings after you take the plunge. BTW, how long a term for MotoExtras did you buy in for?

    image
  • moondog151 41 Points
    I see just what you mean, about the file sizes........I only opted for the one year subscripiton to the Motoextras at this time. My reason for doing it THAT way, is because I`m not sure of what issues I may encounter "down the road". I was just trying the Motoextras out, and see I have lost sound, after checking a little bit further, somehow, that "60" update had gotten downloaded again!! I have to leave here in about 15 minutes, so I`ll pursue that "fix" later on when I get back. In the meantime, I`m using my other one (765).
  • moondog151 41 Points
    image




    This is the screen I had gotten when checking the "info" tab on that "fix".
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    Did you click on the "Content List" button?
  • moondog151 41 Points
    Yes, I did Spyder, but that page would not open. Not sure if there were problems on thier (Motorola) end, or mine at that time. I have really no idea of what that "fix" pertains to, as of yet. I won`t download it, until I`m sure of what it is tho.......
    Also, when I purchased the MotoExtra`s, I had to do it from thier main site, (under the appropiate section there) and then I was able to complete the transaction. I coudn`t find that option, while connected to the toolbox. When I used the toolbox, the only options it said was available, was Q4 2009 maps ($79) and "traffic camera`s" ($39). Just FYI.....
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    Well, another one of the great mysteries of the universe, I guess, regarding the "new" nav update. I wouldn't try it either. I'd simply like to know why I am presented with different update data. Maybe the TLizard or Camel will take a look after his Independence day bender. :wink:

    I did notice that purchasing MotoExtras subscription was not available in the Toolbox. I am a couple weeks away from the need to re-up and my thinking would be to do the 1 year as well. Either Moto or me could be dead in 12 months! (I wonder if I did kick the bucket and had a 3 year subscription if the remainder would become part of my estate and could be inherited???)
    I wonder if customer service could answer that one! Dong-Ding!

    I believe I did see some posts from upset folks in EUrope over Moto's definition of Lifetime updates. I think it was a lifetime traffic update related to their smartphones being offered and Moto's definition of "Lifetime" was 2 years!
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    <photo snipped> This is what the toolbox looked like, for me...
    What is the size of the "fix for navigation contents" that you are seeing? I am now recalling that there was a "fix" that included most, if not all US states, a while back. Maybe that is what you are seeing. I did that one with no problems, but Alaska keeping coming back for me. I'll check my notes and see if I made note of the size of the "all US" update.
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    Random Thoughts.... I wonder how long it will take for the map updates from Moto to eliminate all the BP gas station POI logos? In our area (PA) signs are changing to Gulf and Shell faster than a one-armed wallpaper hanger in a whore house! :lol: :lol:
  • moondog151 41 Points
    image
    This doesn`t make any sense at all. This morning, after connecting back into the toolbox, that "fix" has dissapeared! I can see where I installed the motoextras yesterday, and somehow, that "60" update that snuck by me. I`m going to leave that "60" update in my unit, and temporarily delete my cell phone from it, and wait until that bluetooth patch comes along and download that patch first, before re-connecting my cell back up to it, to see if that upcoming "fix" will work. In the meantime, I`m using my 2nd one.....
  • moondog151 41 Points
    Before I forget, Spyder, I get that pesky Alaska update too, on my 2nd unit. I believe the reason that I`m getting that, is because when I initially downloaded the Q4 map updates, I de-selecteded the Alaska update, because I know, I won`t be traveling thru that area. By any chance, did you happen to de-select the Alaska one too? Just wondering....
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    I have downloaded/installed the Alaska file numerous times and it just keeps coming back as a "new" update. I just ignore it now. Not really sure if it did actually update or not.

    I also had a post about the earlier multi-state update in another thread. The gist of that story is:

    There appears to be a Motonav "fix for navigation content" for US Map Release 2009 Q4 available via the Toolbox application. (As of 5/27/2010) It seems to be map/POI updates for the US and Canada. Total file size is 723 MB. Total installation takes about 10-12 minutes and it proceeds in two phases so be sure to wait it out after the initial download finishes.


    And that file size does not match the file update you were seeing on Jul 3. :?: :?: :?: Somebody at Moto is just messin' with our minds!! :wink:
  • moondog151 41 Points
    You are so right about the file size being different than the one I seen yesterday on that "unknown" fix that was available. That issue bothered me all afternoon, so just moments ago, I again hooked my unit back into the toolbox, and I got the very same screen as I had earlier this morning. Is Moto messing with our minds? Hahahahaahaa, I have no idea!! What makes me REAL suspicious,is when I went to "details" and the page wouldn`t load, I`m just wondering if I had gotten an erroneous "update", from them doing maintainance on thier toolbox site? I`ll just keep an eye out to see if it comes back again. Electronics, are very similar to a wife, totally unpredictable!!!! They only do things, when they are ready to do it!!
  • All I get when I connect is the advice to install the broken "60" update. I never saw the other "fix" you both reported.

    I wonder if someone had come up with a beta fix for "60" and they decided to pull it back?

    Hey Dowg, did you install it when you did the "60" update? have you tried it out?
  • Wow, this thread has grown! I am finally back, I hadn't used my Moto in a little bit so I lost touch with this forum.

    My buddy let me know about the "60" update, so I came on here to read what it's all about. I fired up my Moto and I have version 8.5.4.136569. Is that version known to have any problems?

    If not, I have a backup and can try to give it to you guys if I can. Just let me know.
  • ...I fired up my Moto and I have version 8.5.4.136569. Is that version known to have any problems?

    If not, I have a backup and can try to give it to you guys if I can. Just let me know.
    The "59" seems to be fine (wish i had it!). Only the "60" has the sound issue, but as mentioned above, moto has a fix that should be out later this month. Apparently it's a BlueTooth issue.

    BTW - I may have mentioned this before, but I'm really impressed with how fast this thing recalculates! Most of the time, it's done calcing before it can finish saying "recalculating"! Must be a fast processor, which to me, means there's lot's of room for functionality improvements/additions! :)
  • ...I fired up my Moto and I have version 8.5.4.136569. Is that version known to have any problems?

    If not, I have a backup and can try to give it to you guys if I can. Just let me know.


    The "59" seems to be fine (wish i had it!). Only the "60" has the sound issue, but as mentioned above, moto has a fix that should be out later this month. Apparently it's a BlueTooth issue.

    BTW - I may have mentioned this before, but I'm
    really impressed with how fast this thing recalculates! Most of the time, it's done calcing before it can finish saying "recalculating"! Must be a fast processor, which to me, means there's lot's of room for functionality improvements/additions! :)
    Thanks for the response Thunder! I have the "69", not the "59". Do you refer to it as the "59"?

    Anyhow, I have a backup of it if anyone wants to let me know what I need to extract from it.

    Also, when I open the toolbox, I see the "60" update which I won't install. But there is also a 723 MB "Fix for navigation contents" update. Should I install that one? If so, can I install that without having to install the "60" update?

    Lastly, I remember being in the Navigon camp with you Thunder! I had a 7200T for a couple of years before it was stolen. I then got another off Amazon Warehouse and then that's when the Moto was released. I got the Moto, returned my 7200T and haven't looked back since. I absolutely LOVED my 7200T but I had to let it go. I am very happy with the Moto. :D
  • moondog151 41 Points
    No Thunderlizard, I have not seen that "fix" that I had seen Saturday, since... I did not try to download it, as I couldn`t open the contents page, to actually see what it was supposed to contain. I`m puzzled about it too, I don`t know if there was a "hiccup" on thier end, or maybe even my end.
    I DID however, download (erroneously) the "60" update, knowing full well was what going to happen, but wanted to have it ready for the bluetooth fix that is supposed to be coming out. In the meantime tho, I have temporarily deleted my cell phone from it. I want to have it (the 765t) ready to see if the new patch WILL work or not. In the meantime, I`m using my 2nd unit in my vehicle.....
  • ...I fired up my Moto and I have version 8.5.4.136569. Is that version known to have any problems?

    If not, I have a backup and can try to give it to you guys if I can. Just let me know.


    The "59" seems to be fine (wish i had it!). Only the "60" has the sound issue, but as mentioned above, moto has a fix that should be out later this month. Apparently it's a BlueTooth issue.

    BTW - I may have mentioned this before, but I'm
    really impressed with how fast this thing recalculates! Most of the time, it's done calcing before it can finish saying "recalculating"! Must be a fast processor, which to me, means there's lot's of room for functionality improvements/additions! :)


    Thanks for the response Thunder! I have the "69", not the "59". Do you refer to it as the "59"?

    Anyhow, I have a backup of it if anyone wants to let me know what I need to extract from it.

    Also, when I open the toolbox, I see the "60" update which I won't install. But there is also a 723 MB "Fix for navigation contents" update. Should I install that one? If so, can I install that without having to install the "60" update?

    Lastly, I remember being in the Navigon camp with you Thunder! I had a 7200T for a couple of years before it was stolen. I then got another off Amazon Warehouse and then that's when the Moto was released. I got the Moto, returned my 7200T and haven't looked back since. I absolutely LOVED my 7200T but I had to let it go. I am very happy with the Moto. :D
    ...I think my dislexia is getting the best of me...yeah, I guess it is the "569" update (I got tired of writing all the numbers!)...and I still wish I had it!

    Regarding the other "fix for nav contents", I don't get that when I hook up to the tool box, so I can assume that it was downloaded in my last map update. That being the case, you should be fine if you install it (but, as always, do a backup first!). You should be able to deselect the "60" update and just install the "fix for nav".

    Yeah, I remember you from the ol' Navigon days...I really loved my 8100T. I didn't realize just how much I loved it till it was gone and I bought a Nuvi 765T! Though I liked the directional arrows on the Nuvi POI's, the Navigon was far superior in so many ways. (I still miss "Exit Guide" for knowing what's on the upcoming exits.) But I have to say, once the bugs are fixed on the MotoNav, this will easily be my favorite GPS. I love Google search, and the widescreen is awesome!

    if this keeps up, The MotoNav will garner it's own dedicated "Forum"! (then, I will feel both legit and validated! ha! :lol: )

    Good to be Navi-blogging with ya once again! :D
  • moondog151 41 Points
    WizeGuyDezigns...The version softare you are currently using, works just fine. I have that same version number, in my other one...
    I am thinking your 732mb "fix" file, is for an update to the maps, however, to be sure, when you click on that, and view "contensts" page in the toolbox, it`ll tell you exactly what that navigation fix is for....
  • No Thunderlizard, I have not seen that "fix" that I had seen Saturday, since... I did not try to download it, as I couldn`t open the contents page, to actually see what it was supposed to contain. I`m puzzled about it too, I don`t know if there was a "hiccup" on thier end, or maybe even my end.
    I DID however, download (erroneously) the "60" update, knowing full well was what going to happen, but wanted to have it ready for the bluetooth fix that is supposed to be coming out. In the meantime tho, I have temporarily deleted my cell phone from it. I want to have it (the 765t) ready to see if the new patch WILL work or not. In the meantime, I`m using my 2nd unit in my vehicle.....

    ...you have TWO Motonavs? I'm jealous...
  • Thanks guys for the responses, I really appreciate it!
  • moondog151 41 Points
    Hahahaa, yup, like the wife has said in the past, my elevator doesn`t go all the way to the top floor.
    Also, I`ve been playing with the VR secttion, and have activated the "VR Command mode, to "VR prompts & Readout List" and am impressed, when doing a voice search, it will "speak" your first 3 or 4 results. I didn`t know it was capable of doing that, I won`t part with this 765T for anything!!!!
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    Hello, I am a new user of the Motonav TN765T and I've been lurking on your forum for a while, you guys are the reason I jumped in. I have posted a couple of questions with great results. I don't even want to bother with the customer service as they seem to be teenagers who are reading a script. So, I was wondering if I could run a couple more questions by you.
    When I go to:
    Settings>System>Main Menu, when I click it, it brings up all of the buttons 15 of them, I can click them and they click and highlight, but they do not do anything. Are they supposed to?
    Next, the top button on the unit is non functional, it says it is supposed to take you to map/menu button.
    Lastly, the lower left button, customizable I have as favorites, again nothing...
    I am on SW version 8.5.4.12950. which is what it came with, after I rolled back the newest buggy one 60 version, I too lost my voice function.
    There it is, I know I am asking a lot, and I do thank you in advance for your knowlege.
  • moondog151 41 Points
    It kind of sounds like you need to do a "soft" reset...just a guess on my part. To do the "soft" reset, slide your power button all the way to the left, as your facing the screen. Hold that button over, for a good 10 seconds or so, and then try rebooting it and see if your main menu buttons will then work. Also, the top button is to bring up the main menu with just a tap, but, it MUST be in the charging cradle, and power supplied to the charging cradle, at the same time...Hope this helps you!
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    @WizeGuy - Good to see you back in here. In my eyes you're like the "Godfather" of Motonav! :lol:

    image
    Above in this thread and in another one I mentioned the 723MB nav fix and it showed up toward the end of May and it installed OK for me. Just be patient with the download/install process. Let us know if after doing it you start to get the Alaska.fbl "nav fix" update pestering you.
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    Thanks I will try that, and just to be clear, the main menu works off the main page, it is just when I go into the settings, deeper in...
  • Hello, I am a new user of the Motonav TN765T and I've been lurking on your forum for a while, you guys are the reason I jumped in. I have posted a couple of questions with great results. I don't even want to bother with the customer service as they seem to be teenagers who are reading a script. So, I was wondering if I could run a couple more questions by you.
    When I go to:
    Settings>System>Main Menu, when I click it, it brings up all of the buttons 15 of them, I can click them and they click and highlight, but they do not do anything. Are they supposed to?
    Next, the top button on the unit is non functional, it says it is supposed to take you to map/menu button.
    Lastly, the lower left button, customizable I have as favorites, again nothing...
    I am on SW version 8.5.4.12950. which is what it came with, after I rolled back the newest buggy one 60 version, I too lost my voice function.
    There it is, I know I am asking a lot, and I do thank you in advance for your knowlege.
    On the 'menu" question: this allows you to reposition the buttons in the order you want. They light up so you can move them, but won't actually do anything while in this mode.

    On the top button: it only works when cradled. :roll:

    Finally, the customizable button: same as the top button: only works when cradled.

    Hope this helps!

    And Welcome to the forum! :D
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    Thanks so much! That clears up everything I asked. And thanks for the welcome, you folks seem to have a tight grasp on the workings of this unit. I posted a few days ago that I had a Garmin 1490T for a month that died after a one hour trip to Bloomington, Indiana. It was the longest trip I had taken with it, so I really was sort of glad it died cause when I saw the Motonav 765t on consumer reports I wanted it really, just couldn't find one locally, so after looking at your posts I decided to just order it online.
    As long as I have your attention, have you noticed in the toolbox under transfer my contents>United States there are different voices, male voice Jason and Dave, and female Samatha and Amy? I only have the one female voice....
    One other question, does anyone have a screenshot of a junction view? Like the interstate view and lane assist? By the way, Indianapolis 3D landmarks look really good, and accurate depiction of them!
    Thanks again in advance! :wink:
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    aaaah, my work here is done!


    But, before I retire..... I was wondering if others have run into these two anomalies?

    1. Many times when I set up a route - for example just this morning I "pushed" a Google address to the gps and when I hit "GO" to the location it appears that the calculation goes A-OK, but when I slide in the left windows to look at the Turn-by-Turn listing it does not appear, but the End of Trip window is there indicating I have completed the trip I just calculated, although all numbers are zero. If I cancel the current route and select the location again then the turn-by-turn list appears. I have not narrowed this down to only happening with Google searches or normal find location process. Anyone seeing this happen?

    2. I have a devil of a time deleting a personal folder I created under Favorites. You do need to have at least one favorite location saved inside the folder to actually delete a folder, but no matter how many favorites I put in the folder it will not delete - until I do a soft reset. Anyone else run into this little problem?
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    I haven't done either one of these procedures, so I can't address them, sorry :(
  • Spyder63 331 Points

    As long as I have your attention, have you noticed in the toolbox under transfer my contents>United States there are different voices, male voice Jason and Dave, and female Samatha and Amy? I only have the one female voice....
    Samantha is the only TTS voice they gave us. If you want to try the other non-TTS voices goto System -> Language -> Voice Language and you can select the others.
    One other question, does anyone have a screenshot of a junction view?
    Did you download the actual manual as there are screen shots in it. You can find it on the Motonav site. Or you can use Trip Planner to set up a route and then simulate the route. Just make sure you do it on an interstate in an urban area to be sure to see some junctions come up quickly. You should have seen plenty headed to Indianapolis?
  • Interesting. Since I never sought to transfer my contents, I never noticed that! I'm gonna post a question on Motorola's site and see what the mods have to say about that! :shock:
    Hey, If I can get a different voice than the Gin lady (in my Amazon review, I said she sounded like a woman who drank too much gin and smoked too many cigarettes! ha!) I'd be happy!

    I'll keep y'all posted...
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    Here's one where they spelled Cincinnati wrong! This shows Lane Guidance

    image

    Here's is a Junction View

    image

    If you tap on the large green informational sign it will change to Lane Guidance view.
  • mickjcat 0 Points

    As long as I have your attention, have you noticed in the toolbox under transfer my contents>United States there are different voices, male voice Jason and Dave, and female Samatha and Amy? I only have the one female voice....


    Samantha is the only TTS voice they gave us. If you want to try the other non-TTS voices goto System -> Language -> Voice Language and you can select the others. Thanks, that worked!

    One other question, does anyone have a screenshot of a junction view?


    Did you download the actual manual as there are screen shots in it. You can find it on the Motonav site. Or you can use Trip Planner to set up a route and then simulate the route. Just make sure you do it on an interstate in an urban area to be sure to see some junctions come up quickly. You should have seen plenty headed to Indianapolis?
    I did a simulation to Indianapolis, but no interstates, so I will do a I465 and I65 route and see what comes up. Thanks Spyder 63
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    Great graphics! I wondered what it looked like compared to my Garmin, which doesn't have Indianapolis in it as far as I could tell.....
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    Interesting. Since I never sought to transfer my contents, I never noticed that! I'm gonna post a question on Motorola's site and see what the mods have to say about that! :shock:
    Hey, If I can get a different voice than the Gin lady (in my Amazon review, I said she sounded like a woman who drank too much gin and smoked too many cigarettes! ha!) I'd be happy!

    I'll keep y'all posted...
    Did you see Spyder 63 answer to this question about voices? Seems we do have options, :D , and lol on the descriptive analysis of Samatha, my friend noted "she was kind of bitchy".... 8)
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    If you are curious about terrain view go back several pages in this thread for some screen shots. Not too many decent hills in Indiana to see it presented. :wink:
  • Interesting. Since I never sought to transfer my contents, I never noticed that! I'm gonna post a question on Motorola's site and see what the mods have to say about that! :shock:
    Hey, If I can get a different voice than the Gin lady (in my Amazon review, I said she sounded like a woman who drank too much gin and smoked too many cigarettes! ha!) I'd be happy!

    I'll keep y'all posted...


    Did you see Spyder 63 answer to this question about voices? Seems we do have options, :D , and lol on the descriptive analysis of Samatha, my friend noted "she was kind of bitchy".... 8)

    It's hard to beat the Australian chick from Garmin...IMHO! Best voice I've heard yet! I have to say though, this is one area where the Navigon I had fell way short. Street pronunciation and voice were hilarious! Even my kids would crack up at the way it spoke street names. At least the Gin lady is pretty realistic and phonetically correct (most of the time).
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    Interesting. Since I never sought to transfer my contents, I never noticed that! I'm gonna post a question on Motorola's site and see what the mods have to say about that! :shock:
    Hey, If I can get a different voice than the Gin lady (in my Amazon review, I said she sounded like a woman who drank too much gin and smoked too many cigarettes! ha!) I'd be happy!

    I'll keep y'all posted...


    Did you see Spyder 63 answer to this question about voices? Seems we do have options, :D , and lol on the descriptive analysis of Samatha, my friend noted "she was kind of bitchy".... 8)



    It's hard to beat the Australian chick from Garmin...IMHO! Best voice I've heard yet! I have to say though, this is one area where the Navigon I had fell way short. Street pronunciation and voice were hilarious! Even my kids would crack up at the way it spoke street names. At least the Gin lady is pretty realistic and phonetically correct (most of the time).
    Yeah, Garmin had several fun voices to choose from, I am going with Amy for now, and check out the guys voices later. 8)
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    If you are curious about terrain view go back several pages in this thread for some screen shots. Not too many decent hills in Indiana to see it presented. :wink:
    I will try to check that out, I am going to Virginia in October and look forward to seeing the Appalachians on the Motonav. By the I can't seem to get the google maps to send an address to my unit.... :cry:
  • When you put in the serial number in Google, you have to remove the "1" at the beginning. Just start with the zeros. Then, when you do a Google update from your unit, it will pull the address in through your cell phone.

    Try that and see if it works for you. Worked for me!
  • ...anybody heard from Camel?? :shock:
    he used to be pretty vocal on this forum...now he's awfully quiet!
  • mickjcat 0 Points
    When you put in the serial number in Google, you have to remove the "1" at the beginning. Just start with the zeros. Then, when you do a Google update from your unit, it will pull the address in through your cell phone.

    Try that and see if it works for you. Worked for me!
    That's the ticket! Thanks!
  • Spyder63 331 Points
    ...anybody heard from Camel?? :shock:
    he used to be pretty vocal on this forum...now he's awfully quiet!
    He said something about going out partying for the 4th on the lake or ocean or was it kiddie pool in the back yard? Lots of drinking involved. Maybe he fell out of the boat and never to be heard from again! :roll: :wink:

    So, Mikie, where art thou?
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