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2505 Live brings HD Traffic to the US

dhn 336 Points
edited November -1 in TomTom Car Forum
TomTom has announced the new 2505Live coming soon to North America. And with it comes what TomTom calls HDTraffic, promising the "most accurate, comprehensive and frequent traffic information available" Expect pricing to be around $350, which buys an as-yet to be determined Live subscription period that offers TomTom HD Traffic, Local Search, Fuel Prices, and Weather Forecasts bundled.

Seems to be for this summer and NOT for Canada

Comments

  • papa 0 Points
    And with it comes what TomTom calls HDTraffic, promising the "most accurate, comprehensive and frequent traffic information available"
    FWIW, I believe the Cydle T43H was the first GPS to utilize HD Traffic.

    See here

    Quote:
    At 2010 International CES, Cydle (www.cydle.com), the emerging leader in car-based multimedia systems and one of South Korea’s biggest electronics makers, is poised to launch a diverse suite of products that includes the world’s first portable GPS with built-in HD Radio and free HD live traffic updates.
  • Cydle is talking about using HD radio rather than FM-TMC whereas TT uses HD Traffic as a brand name.

    This is going to be more like what they did in South Africa rather than what they are doing in Europe.

    The press releases that go into any detail confirm there is no cell phone triangulation with their US version of HD Traffic. They should just call it HD Traffic Lite.
  • offthegrid 91 Points
    edited January 2011
    GPS Business News says the same as this from CNET. TT's HD Traffic here is not using cell phones.

    http://ces.cnet.com/8301-32254_1-20027331-283.html

    TomTom's HD Traffic system takes a three-pronged approach, taking advantage of road sensor data, IQ Routes time-based predictive traffic flow data generated anonymously by the millions of TomTom device and app users, and real time traffic data generated by users and fleets equipped with connected TomTom and Tele Atlas devices. All of this data is blended using a proprietary algorithm at TomTom's traffic center to create what TomTom calls the most up-to-the-minute and accurate view of what's happening on the road. Additionally, because TomTom isn't relying solely on highway road sensors, the HD Traffic service should also provide flow data for surface roads and city streets--roadways previously neglected by most traffic services.
  • It's using that term because they use HD Radio - the comparison ends right there.

    TomTom uses the phrase to describe its own traffic service which they have used in Europe for a few years now. Its a phrase not a specific service.

    In Cydles case they use phrase that because they use HD Radio for the exact same traffic data that other companies get from Total Traffic and Navteq over FM radio. It has nothing to do with the traffic data itself. Cydle does not generate their own traffic data.
    And with it comes what TomTom calls HDTraffic, promising the "most accurate, comprehensive and frequent traffic information available"


    FWIW, I believe the Cydle T43H was the first GPS to utilize HD Traffic.

    See
    here

    Quote:
    At 2010 International CES, Cydle (www.cydle.com), the emerging leader in car-based multimedia systems and one of South Korea’s biggest electronics makers, is poised to launch a diverse suite of products that includes the world’s first portable GPS with built-in HD Radio and free HD live traffic updates.
  • mvl 191 Points
    Tomtom just changed from the purple "LIVE" icon, to the black "HD Traffic" icon on all American cities, on routes.tomtom.com.

    They also have substantially better traffic detail now vs what they used to show just last December 2010.
  • Tim 1481 Points
    Wonder if the iPhone app traffic subscribers will get "upgraded" to the HD version.
  • mvl 191 Points
    One iPhone owner said on another forum that they also saw the substantial improvements in sidestreet coverage on the iPhone.

    It didn't match the routes.tomtom.com website, but they were unsure if it was just an issue on timing of the traffic update.
  • Tim 1481 Points
    Yeah, I'm not seeing the same level of detail on the iPhone app as I am on routes.tomtom.com.
  • Routes is definitely showing streets which are not covered by Yahoo Maps which uses TrafficCast.

    If the 740 is not showing that level of detail the question of whether or not existing connected units will get this new coverage may have been answered.
  • RRPND 0 Points
    I don't understand tomtom's marketing strategy. They keep hyping HD traffic as a reason to use their units, but then only make it available for the Live units or unit (2535 Live) which hasn't been released yet? Why not offer HD traffic on most if not all of their units? Please correct me if their HD traffic is available on units other than the connected ones.

    It's not a big deal for me, as I now own a 340 Live (Use Google search all the time and the traffic is nice) and plan on getting the 2535 Live if it looks like TT is going to have its act relatively together upon release. Still, as a user of their products, thier apparent odd strategy makes one wonder what is going through their minds.
  • mvl 191 Points
    LIVE traffic requires a data modem, as it has to connect directly to Tomtom's servers. Only the LIVE models have a physical modem installed.

    The standard antenna provides only FM radio broadcasts, which is licensed from a 3rd party and not owned by Tomtom.
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    There was a suggestion posted at another site that the US Live traffic, or at least a significant portion, is also from an undisclosed 3rd party. No other details that I remember.
  • I wouldn't be surprised if this is 'Dynaflow 3.0' from TrafficCast but GPS Business News reported this some time ago below. Inrix has said recently they have 5 million probes and Google has many more probes than that so either two separate TomTom sources are lying about the probe count or it's just TomTom's own sources. I'd rule Navteq out as a source just because of conflicts there. The only other possible sources are RIM, TCS/NIM, TeleNav or AirSage. All of them have far more than a few hundred thousand probes.

    If it works well though who cares right? It does make me wonder whether they grab data off 740's and 340's with no subscription from time to time.

    http://www.gpsbusinessnews.com/TomTom-Releases-HD-Traffic-New-Connected-PND-in-the-US_a2694.html

    "According to TomTom’s senior vice president of market development Tom Murray, in the United States TomTom relies on historical traffic data (IQ Route), “several hundred of thousand traffic probes” and incident data. TomTom claims to provide traffic coverage for 6 million miles against half a million miles for TMC-based traffic information systems."

    and this from GPSPassion and his conversation with Jeff Kim head of traffic for TomTom USA.

    http://www.gpspassion.com/forumsen/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=100734&whichpage=4

    1. The 6 million mile coverage is the potential coverage that they can achieve thanks to the use of OpenLR that allows for dynamic placement of traffic incidents on the map without being limited by the hard-coded TMC codes in the maps. I see they have a page about OpenLR http://www.tomtom.com/page/openLR - not sure when it was announced

    OpenLR sounds useful to increase the granularity of traffic information as you often see incidents being reported on longer sections than needed, typically from one exit to the next on a freeway. However you still need to find good data into the system...

    2. I had a hard time getting hard info on what sources they are using...no GSM tracks as they have in Europe due to the lack of an agreement with a carrier, so that's confirmed. They reckon their forte lies in the connected devices they have on the road and that report their GPS position anonymously. That includes the connected PNDs and TomTom for iPhone. Couldn't get any numbers but they feel it provides good data...I also got them to say they worked with traffic providers to get incident data, but no names given. Last but not least "Advanced IQ Routes" that increases the granularity of historical traffic information by having all the data present on their servers in one minute increments, versus 5 minutes as hardcoded in the maps of the GPS systems. Also there is more computing power on the servers to optimize routes using the historical data.

    3. Number or probes versus the competition : I asked how they felt they could compete with traffic providers who claim millions of probes...the answer was that you have to sort through the "probes". One point he brought up is that some providers use probes that report data every 15 minutes, TomTom's are every 2 minutes.
  • mvl 191 Points
    It does make me wonder whether they grab data off 740's and 340's with no subscription from time to time.
    I don't think they grab data off non-subscription models in the USA. Once a subscription expires, the Jaspar sim disables itself (no connection in network status). This is unlike the European SIMs that stay alive for a period of months, serving as additional probes.

    I think HD traffic really doesn't need too many probes because of IQroutes. Take for example Google/Airsage. Given "perfect" main/secondary road coverage, my experience with Google is that it routes through incorrect tertiary roads due to limited historical data. And (although it was a 2010 map) the TrafficTrends didn't do much better.

    With Tomtom's 3 trillion historical probes, all you really need is to cover exceptions. And the "exceptions" have at least 50 vehicles pass them within the 3-minute reporting interval. So all Tomtom really needs in my opinion is 1/50 = probes in 2% of vehicles. It probably has that in big congested cities.

    All I can say is that the GO740 LIVE traffic works very very well now. It's been 2-3 weeks since it missreported (over-report or under-report) a single jam on any road I've driven in Boston. This includes tiny sidestreets and highway offramps. With routes.tomtom.com turning into black "HD symbols", and the unbelievable accuracy of LIVE traffic, I think HD traffic is here. And it's all the marketers hyped it to be, nothing I've ever tried (including 2010 Tomtom LIVE traffic) even comes close.
  • The newer units actually have the 'Advanced IQroutes.

    I agree with you here. My post was mainly aimed at what Gator had read on another board that the traffic looks like its from another vendor. TomTom would be touting the additional probes etc if that was the case. There is an outside chance that they are still working with TrafficCast but they want to be secretive about whatever they are doing.
    If they are still working with TrafficCast its not the same product Dynaflow 2 thats for sure.

    If you find its more accurate thats what counts. I've noticed like you said here or in TomTom forums that the highway traffic seems to be shorter more specific info rather than these single long jams.

    I was all set to get a 1695 and I kept going back and forth and finally bought a refurb TT till the 2535 comes out - for the IQ Routes. That and I see where TT now has coverage on all the ways I can drive home.


    I think HD traffic really doesn't need too many probes because of IQroutes. Take for example Google/Airsage. Given "perfect" main/secondary road coverage, my experience with Google is that it routes through incorrect tertiary roads due to limited historical data. And (although it was a 2010 map) the TrafficTrends didn't do much better.

    With Tomtom's 3 trillion historical probes, all you really need is to cover exceptions. And the "exceptions" have at least 50 vehicles pass them within the 3-minute reporting interval. So all Tomtom really needs in my opinion is 1/50 = probes in 2% of vehicles. It probably has that in big congested cities.
  • mvl 191 Points
    Yes, the highway info is shorter and more specific.

    What's strange is the overall reduction in real world traffic the past couple of weeks. The Tomtom is leading me places that always used to have traffic, and there's no delays whatsoever. I know working remotely, high Massachusetts unemployment, and high fuel prices have a big role to play, but I'm also wondering if the twin go-lives of Google routing and HD traffic have gotten the roads to be used more efficiently.
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    Many of the traffic patterns and most of the flow data changed over the past three years simply due to lower traffic volume. High unemployment tends to do that.
  • dhn 336 Points
    Threads in UK forums about the same thing, less traffic congestion on major roads in the UK, probably due to higher fuel costs.
  • mvl 191 Points
    Many of the traffic patterns and most of the flow data changed over the past three years simply due to lower traffic volume. High unemployment tends to do that.
    I agree there's a reduction over the years. But there was a sharp reduction in Boston early March. Perfect storm of unemployment, fuel prices, and remote working technology. Maybe you can also add spring break shutting down the universities. But the GPS geek in me still feels Android routing and HD traffic are playing a small role...
  • gatorguy 326 Points
    Is there any indication that the newer "Advanced IQR" is date specific? In other words does it allow for Spring Break, or National/Regional holidays and events? Different Winter/Summer traffic patterns? If not, then what is the change that Advanced IQR brings?
  • RRPND 0 Points
    LIVE traffic requires a data modem, as it has to connect directly to Tomtom's servers. Only the LIVE models have a physical modem installed.

    The standard antenna provides only FM radio broadcasts, which is licensed from a 3rd party and not owned by Tomtom.
    Thanks MVL. I forgot that the LIVE units connect to TT's servers for HD traffic.
    I guess maybe the vast majority of users don't want or need HD traffic, or they wouldn't want to pay the subscription fee. Or, it's possilbe TT will sell a ton of these LIVE units. Any idea how well the 340 and 740 LIVEs have sold, and how many active subscription they have.

    Also enjoyed reading others' thoughts about TT traffic info and traffic flow. I wonder if the Department of Transportation and other government agencies looking at traffic flow, use data colected by the mapping companies or if they collect their own data. Seems like there could be benefits to collaboration.
  • mvl 191 Points
    Any idea how well the 340 and 740 LIVEs have sold, and how many active subscription they have.
    I don't think they've sold well. There have been a never-ending string of issues with USA LIVE services with Tomtom. Initially, accounts would never activate or renew properly. Now the latest software for those models crashes all the time.

    With the subscriptions issues worked out, you can actually get a good experience with a forced-downgrade to early 2008 software. But I'm thinking most customers just returned their devices.

    The GO 1005 LIVE (the European twin of the GO 2535) has it's own unending issues with missing features, and with map installs and their tendency to brick devices.

    I'd wait a while to see if Tomtom can get their act together before rushing to buy a GO 2535 LIVE. If the early adopters confirm that it has the same traffic quality as the other American LIVE models, I'd recommend sticking with iPhone or GO740 (with app 8.312) HD traffic instead. At least until early adopters say Tomtom's got the kinks worked out on the GO2535LIVE.

    I'd treat Tomtom like I used to treat Microsoft, I'd never buy their products until at least 1-2 service packs come out.
    Also enjoyed reading others' thoughts about TT traffic info and traffic flow. I wonder if the Department of Transportation and other government agencies looking at traffic flow, use data colected by the mapping companies or if they collect their own data. Seems like there could be benefits to collaboration.
    There are reciprocal sales going on. Some governments are selling data to traffic companies, and some traffic companies are selling data to governments. Tomtom has a whole business unit working on sales to governments, and another unit working on LIVE feed suppliers.
  • RRPND 0 Points
    I'll try to wait for them to get things ironned out, but it will be hard. The GPS geek in me wants the faster processor, bluetooth, voicecommand, etc. all while keeping the HD traffic and Google search (I haven't jumped on a smartphone yet). I have considered the Garmin 1695nulink but it doesn't appear that the traffic and routing is as good as TT's with IQ routes and HD traffic. Other complaints are being aired (e.g. slow route calculation, too close to exit warning) about them as well.
  • mvl 191 Points
    Tomtom has issued a press release confirming what I have been seeing for the past month.

    The HD traffic service has been expanded to all LIVE traffic feeds in the USA. They also announced $59.95 annual pricing for LIVE service renewals on all models.
  • offthegrid 91 Points
    A refurbed 740 is a great buy with the $60 Live services. I've seen them for $130.
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