Don't know if this includes map updates, software updates or for how long. I hope they announce something before the Navigon's price goes up on Aug 15 ...
Personally, I think there is some fuzzy math out there. Also consider that they are listing the European version with European maps, so based on what Navigon is doing there could be a difference.
Navigon North America (sale) - $59 - £ 39
Navigon North America (reg) - $99 - £ 59
Navigon Europe (sale) - $99 - £ 59
Navigon Europe (reg) - $139 - £ 132
TomTom Europe (rumor) - $169 - £ 99
So when doing the best apples to apples comparison we can (non-sale prices, same map package) you can go for Navigon Europe for $139 or go for the TomTom package which gives you the mount, charger, external speaker, external microphone, charger, and external GPS chip for only 20% more than the Navigon app.
If we took the same price ratio Navigon used between Europe and North America 99/139, then you might presume the TomTom North America package might cost $119.
No doubt I'm taking some poetic license with my calculations. But I think many people are looking at the mount as just a mount. It is basically a PND itself just without a screen. And it is actually a good PND without a screen since it has a microphone.
I am having 2nd thoughts about using the iPhone as a PND:
1. I need to use the iPhone to play music during my long distance trips. So, the navigation app must work right with the iPod playing in the background.
2. While the ipod is playing in the background and the nav app is on screen, both have to deal with incoming and outgoing phone calls and resume the music and the navigation when the call is done.
That may be too much to ask.. I may be better off with a separate PND (like a Garmin, my favorite) and use the iPhone for music and phone calls (which it has been designed to do simultaneously).
The iPhone (to me) is primarily a phone and an iPod. I don't want to compromise those functions.
The main benefit of it as a PND (provided it doesn't interfere with the above functions) is the internet connectivity, ie, better traffic, better (updated) POI, road construction info etc. Since the iPhone has a microphone, it could be used for voice control of the navigation app. I doubt that the 1st generation of the PND apps for the iPhone will be able to pull it off.
But, we shall see ...But, if the TomTom with the mounting hardware can do all this and is comparable to buying a separate PND in cost then it becomes a contender.
You can't be on a phone call and have the navigation app running at the same time. However you can start the music playing, turn on the nav app, drive with navigation and the music playing, then accept a call. When a call comes in the navigation becomes disabled while you are on the call. When you open up the navigation app again, the navigation will resume where you left off... at least that is how it works on the TeleNav and Navigon apps.
Joined: 01 May 2009 Posts: 538 Location: Boston, MA
Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:56 am
Tim wrote:
You can't be on a phone call and have the navigation app running at the same time. However you can start the music playing, turn on the nav app, drive with navigation and the music playing, then accept a call. When a call comes in the navigation becomes disabled while you are on the call. When you open up the navigation app again, the navigation will resume where you left off... at least that is how it works on the TeleNav and Navigon apps.
Now Tomtom could be really cool and have put a backup cpu/app on the mount. Wouldn't it be awesome if the mount took over routing and voice directions when a call was happening? Doubt it, but we'll see.
And Tomtom has denied the leaked price:
http://smartphones.about.com/b/2009/08/06/tomtom-denies-iphone-app-price-leaked.htm
I am having 2nd thoughts about using the iPhone as a PND:
1. I need to use the iPhone to play music during my long distance trips. So, the navigation app must work right with the iPod playing in the background.
2. While the ipod is playing in the background and the nav app is on screen, both have to deal with incoming and outgoing phone calls and resume the music and the navigation when the call is done.
That may be too much to ask.. I may be better off with a separate PND (like a Garmin, my favorite) and use the iPhone for music and phone calls (which it has been designed to do simultaneously).
The iPhone (to me) is primarily a phone and an iPod. I don't want to compromise those functions.
The main benefit of it as a PND (provided it doesn't interfere with the above functions) is the internet connectivity, ie, better traffic, better (updated) POI, road construction info etc. Since the iPhone has a microphone, it could be used for voice control of the navigation app. I doubt that the 1st generation of the PND apps for the iPhone will be able to pull it off.
But, we shall see ...But, if the TomTom with the mounting hardware can do all this and is comparable to buying a separate PND in cost then it becomes a contender.
I forgot to add my 3rd requirement:
3. Something like TomTom's hardware should not require me to remove my iPhone from it's skin case or hardcase. Compatibility with all 3rd part cases is not possible, but the connector and clip should be designed to allow cases of reasonable thickness that allow access to the connector on the iPhone.
Joined: 01 May 2009 Posts: 538 Location: Boston, MA
Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:38 am
alokeprasad wrote:
1. I need to use the iPhone to play music during my long distance trips. So, the navigation app must work right with the iPod playing in the background.
2. While the ipod is playing in the background and the nav app is on screen, both have to deal with incoming and outgoing phone calls and resume the music and the navigation when the call is done.
I think Tomtom is positioning the iPhone app to compete at the low end with its ONE line, and to introduce the smartfone world of the value of the Tomtom IQroutes engine.
I'm guessing that many iPhone owners who use the app a lot will end up upgrading to a Tomtom PND.
Your first 2 requrements can already be met by a 2-year old high-end Tomtom 720, when bluetooth connected to a flip phone in my pocket. I use it often to play music and run handsfree calls. With music, the 720 will pause the music to speak directions, and then resume (without skipping part of the song) until the next navigation event. When calls come in, the TTS stays quiet but still runs the navigation on the screen.
until apple upgrades the iPhone to a multitasking OS, it won't be able to come close to a PND in in-car usability.
I agree with you in general. I am considering buying a mid-end PND (with BT) from Garmin to tide me over for the next couple of years, while adding some basic navigation program to the current iPhone.
The PND community is just now getting started with designing fully connected PND with updated traffic, location based services etc. It'll take them a couple of years to get things right.
It is the limitation of the iPhone OS that is limiting the potential of a all-in-one connected smartphone-ipod-PND possibility. That may be different in a couple of years as well.
Looks like the TT iPhone app might roll out today or tomorrow. It's already in the NewZealand iTunes store at $180 NZ, which converts to $120 US dollars. If it's that high, it better be twice as good as anyone else's mobile app.
First glance, I don't see TTS as a feature.
EDIT: Now that I've done some checking around, the US/Canada version may come in closer to $80-90 when announced. Of course that doesn't include the active dock, which I've found no price or availability on yet. Still pretty expensive compared to the current competition.
Can anyone see purchasing the TT app at $126, no active mount available for now? Looks like my first guesstimate may have been pretty close. We'll know in the morning from reports.
No TTS or ALG. AFAIK map updates require a new app purchase. No way to enable 3rd party POI warnings like speed cameras! Altho it reportedly comes with TT's camera file.good intergration with poi's otherwise.
All of the navigation apps handle calls pretty much the same way, so there shouldn't be too much question about what the TomTom app will do. Call comes in. If you don't answer the call, navigation keeps happening. If you take the call the app exits, then when the call is over and you open the app it resumes navigation where you left off (but recalculates based on new position). I'd be surprised if the TomTom app behaves any differently.
All of the navigation apps handle calls pretty much the same way, so there shouldn't be too much question about what the TomTom app will do. Call comes in. If you don't answer the call, navigation keeps happening. If you take the call the app exits, then when the call is over and you open the app it resumes navigation where you left off (but recalculates based on new position). I'd be surprised if the TomTom app behaves any differently.
How about music handling? It would also be nice if the app could send the turn instructions in the background when it is not on screen (by using push).
How about music handling? It would also be nice if the app could send the turn instructions in the background when it is not on screen (by using push).
That isn't really what "push" does. If the app isn't running it won't give you voice prompts.
Joined: 01 May 2009 Posts: 538 Location: Boston, MA
Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:22 am
alokeprasad wrote:
How about music handling? It would also be nice if the app could send the turn instructions in the background when it is not on screen (by using push).
Multiple posters on multiple forums said that you can play music while in navigation mode. When the voice instructions come up, the music pauses, then autoresumes after the voice instruction completes.
Joined: 01 May 2009 Posts: 538 Location: Boston, MA
Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:43 am
We'll know about the map update soon. The iPhone app was released with v830 (May) maps. The new August map is due out any day now, so we'll see how the iPhone app handles it.
When I asked someone a few months ago about updates I was told basically this. (not a direct quote.)
~~~~~ We are not ready to announce the map update process except to say that there will obviously be a way for customers to receive updated maps. New features being released to developers surrounding the App store allow for new types of purchasing options and you could imaging we might take advantage of those. ~~~~~
One of the new app store features is the notion of "in-app purchases" which you could almost think of as plugins. Basically you can purchase an app and then purchase extensions within that app. That would seem to be a logical place for map updates to be purchased, and is perhaps what they were hinting at.
Unless they were not going to offer map updates until one year from now, and then offered the app as "version 2" with a host of new features, there is no way they would get away with trying to charge $99 for a map update that they otherwise get $69-$99 for.
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 513 Location: Cleveland, OH
Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:46 pm
Well, so far it seems from the videos I've seen of the app in action that it really needs no help from a cradle to work properly. Anyone going to bite the bullet and try it out and do an in-depth review for us?
I just bought the Navigon software so I'm hesitant to buy this one till I've seen reviews. However, thus far it seems like the only advantage the TomTom app has (other than the interface) over Navigon is the IQRoutes. While Navigon throws in the ALG.
However, thus far it seems like the only advantage the TomTom app has (other than the interface) over Navigon is the IQRoutes. While Navigon throws in the ALG.
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 513 Location: Cleveland, OH
Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:25 pm
I was really hoping for traffic data, since TomTom units already have the ability to download traffic info over the internet, why not have the option for the iPhone app?
I was really hoping for traffic data, since TomTom units already have the ability to download traffic info over the internet, why not have the option for the iPhone app?
And why no connected search? And why no TomTom Buddies? And why no fuel prices?
I think I know the answer-- and it isn't bandwidth. (And is more boring of an answer than you might imagine.)
But I'd like to hear from others first. For both the Navigon app and the TomTom app, why do you think they are not taking advantage of the connected nature of the iPhone?
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 513 Location: Cleveland, OH
Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:04 pm
I hope we will. Not offering connected features on the world's most connected phone has got to be more than an oversight.
Navigon does not really have an infrastructure yet for connected features AFAIK. But for TomTom, there is simply no excuse. They have been offering these features for years even on their lowest end units... provided you had a phone that would allow you to connect to the internet via bluetooth. Of course I'd like these features to be options for when I'm roaming and don't want a $5000 data bill.
Actually, this brings up another point. Now that there is such a robust and popular platform to develop internet connected GPS apps on, why isn't anyone doing something like DASH?
Actually, this brings up another point. Now that there is such a robust and popular platform to develop internet connected GPS apps on, why isn't anyone doing something like DASH?
I think it is being worked on--- waze has something out now although it is less than useful from a data perspective at this point. Secondary, why bother limiting yourself to just GPS users and GPS app users? Companies like AirSage that are gathering anonymous mobile phone GPS tracks/data will provide the critical mass quicker.
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 513 Location: Cleveland, OH
Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:46 pm
Thats true... good point. Even if I was sharing my GPS info, it would only work for the times when I had the GPS app open while driving. That means that in my home area, I may never be contributing to the community.
I like the concept of anonymous collection much better for reaching the critical mass... like you said.
Joined: 01 May 2009 Posts: 538 Location: Boston, MA
Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:10 pm
I'm hoping that Tomtom smartens up and offers HD traffic to all connected Tomtoms (iPhone, PLUS, and LIVE) when it's released here.
In Europe, I think they were worried about the customer data costs of broadcasting such detailed info (since most European data plans are per-MB). Here, most data is moving to unlimited rates, so the market can easily bear the amount of traffic that HD generates.
The iPhone app is 8.150, which predates the current GO model versions with ALG and the newer connected services. I suspect they'll launch a flavor of an app 8.4 upgrade in 3-6 months if they can monetize the services such as traffic, which will bring it up to potential.
Joined: 01 May 2009 Posts: 538 Location: Boston, MA
Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:45 pm
A member on macrumors said that there's a way to keep the app onscreen and be on a call at the same time. Assuming he's right, this removes one of the key pitfalls of running a turn-by-turn on an iPhone. He also said it works on the Navigon app.
BryanLyle wrote:
Folks do realize that you can use the phone and TomTom (or any other application) at the same time, right?
I've seen lots of posts complaining about getting a phone call in the middle of navigating. If a call comes in, answer it, click the home button to put the phone call into the background and resume the TomTom application.
I had to do this earlier today and it worked great. You don't get the voice prompts to turn, etc, but that's to be expected. Everything else worked perfectly.
Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 233 Location: Minnesota
Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:59 pm
mvl wrote:
A member on macrumors said that there's a way to keep the app onscreen and be on a call at the same time. Assuming he's right, this removes one of the key pitfalls of running a turn-by-turn on an iPhone. He also said it works on the Navigon app.
BryanLyle wrote:
Folks do realize that you can use the phone and TomTom (or any other application) at the same time, right?
I've seen lots of posts complaining about getting a phone call in the middle of navigating. If a call comes in, answer it, click the home button to put the phone call into the background and resume the TomTom application.
I had to do this earlier today and it worked great. You don't get the voice prompts to turn, etc, but that's to be expected. Everything else worked perfectly.
I just tried it on my iPhone with the Navigon app. While running a route I called the iPhone and answered it and while still in the call hit the home button and started the Navigon app again and it continued the route while still being able to talk on the phone.
I don't think that is what some people are looking for though. They want to be able to answer the call with a tap and have navigation just continue without the extra taps.
Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 233 Location: Minnesota
Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:01 pm
Would be nice if you could turn the phone part on or off so you can use these navigation apps without any interuption if you wanted. I thought maybe you could do this by putting the iPhone on airplane mode but that must disable the GPS because I couldn't get a sat. lock in airplane mode.
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 513 Location: Cleveland, OH
Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:08 pm
AFAIK if you jailbreak the iphone, then run an application called "backgrounder" you are able to multi-task... you will be able to be on a phone call and use navigation.
I really think that phone calls should be a part of the API that is allowed to run while another app is running.
At least so far, I'm not seeing much positive from potential purchasers. IMO, they've come in over-priced with features missing like TTS and ALG that buyers expected to see from a name like TomTom. Why ALG isn't included is a mystery as I've seen it in other mobile apps. The application version they chose to use doesn't support it afaik, so perhaps they plan an upgrade pack later this year for even more money?
I really thought they might come in under $60 as an intro to get some play, but apparently they're confident they offer the best available nav option for the iPhone and potential buyers will line up to get it.
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 513 Location: Cleveland, OH
Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:11 pm
mvl wrote:
The iPhone uses wifi to speed up/back up the sat lock. It has a registry of known wifi locations to backup the satellite signal.
Try using the iPhone in airplane mode outdoors with a clear view of the sky. It may work, or it's possible that airplane mode shuts off the GPS.
I've not yet figured out how to use the GPS while in airplane mode. Is there a way to enable the GPS radio without durning on the phone? I'd love to run Navigon while in airplane mode.
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 513 Location: Cleveland, OH
Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:53 pm
Great Review Tim!!
How does blocking roads work? If I wanto to go from say Cleveland, OH to Decatur, IL... if I block Interstate 71, will it choose the northerly route via 80?
Have you figured out how to block particular roads on Navigon?
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 513 Location: Cleveland, OH
Multi-Tasking works great. Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:54 am
Ok folks, its confirmed. I've got the iPhone to navigate just fine while in a phone call.
I've simply downloaded and run a program called RedSnow to jailbreak my iPhone. What this does is simply allow you to run any software you like on the iphone. It is not any infringement of copyright or anything like that.
Once you've jailbroken the phone, install Backgrounder... its an app that lets you run certain apps in the background on your phone.
I tested running Navigon and making a phone call at the same time. It worked brilliantly.
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